8 COMMENTS

1. By els, September 11, 2011

   Excuse us for seeking facts:

   - you state that “inflation is running away”, but in fact according to a record of inflation rates in the US 2000 to the present (go google a website with actual data, and not simply opinion) inflation rate is somewhere around 3.5%. This is after a period of actual deflation (e.g. the average of figures for year 2009 was deflation of -0.34%). Average inflation for 2008 was 3.85%. Average for 2002 – the year after the 9/11/2001 attacks – was 1.59%. While we may not like 3.5%, it is not reached the average high at the end of President’s Bush’s administration. Should Mr Bush’s regime be criticized for ‘run away inflation’? and also setting up the financial crisis – by lack of effective oversight and regulation – the followed, lead to the TARP bailout of Wall Street, and the deflation the followed?

   Excuse us for trying to grasp your rhetoric:

   - you opine that President Obama sounded like a “cheap suited tel-evangelist”. Are you criticizing his clothes (which we’re sure was not a cheap suit)? Or are you criticizing tel-evangelists? ( we’re certainly sure that Reverend Osteen’s suits are NOT cheap; and from what his spouse has been quoted saying, she likes the best of the best of the best at highest prices and demands to be treated with obeisance ). Or are you criticizing evangelism? whether ‘cheap’, or costly?

   Excuse us for being believers:

   But, while you conjure up the political philosopher Marx, to rightly criticize forced communalism, Christians throughout history, from the very beginning of Christian community have practiced communalism:

   Acts 2:42-47 (New International Version (NIV)
   42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

   As we clearly see, and as many Christian communities, throughout THOUSANDS OF YEARS, have done, Christian believers have taken seriously communalism: “all believers were together and had everything in common”.

   Thank you.

   Reply
   • By Kurt Feigel, September 11, 2011

     Inflation is the reason behind higher food and gas prices. the government numbers are a fraud. Don’t believe me? Look how the employment numbers are always “revised” about 7 days after they are initially released.

     You obviously didn’t read carefully. He “SOUNDED” like a tele-evangelist. I didn’t watch the speech. He wears me out going from prompter left to prompter right.

     Ah, the old “christians were communists” line. At the CHOICE of the believers they “had all things in common” and it was THE CHURCH not the GOVERNMENT that was the focus in Acts 2. Way to take a verse and stretching it. So by your logic we could find verses in bible where God said to kill entire peoples and then use that to advocate for eugenics or genocide. Absurd. The other problem you have by twisting scripture is that you don’t see the people in the Church taking swords and TAKING the “things” that were put in common. THAT IS what government does. To “have things in common” they use force. Nowhere in the bible can you see God directing that action.

     Reply
2. By els2, September 11, 2011

   With due respect,

   we did not use the term ‘communists’; that word is especially laden with historical and political constructs of analysis. Christians – or anyone – of the first century after Christ would not know Marx, or any other theorists or commentators about communism.

   The words actually used are the accurate ones, reflective of the text:
   “Christians throughout history, from the very beginning of Christian community have practiced communalism:
   Acts 2:42-47 (New International Version (NIV)
   42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

   Even a brief visit through resources such as Wikipedia will show countless examples of Christian communalism -’they sold property and possession to give to anyone who has need’ – over thousands of years.

   We were being respectful of the text, to reflect the meaning of the words. Your comment exhibited violation of the command ‘do not bear false witness’: you falsely say that we said one thing we we explicitly did not. And, when we explicitly declared repulsion for any communalism by force.

   Despite your ‘false witness’ ( repent truly, and God will forgive!), we accept your argument that proof-texting
   ( finding passages of scripture that support whatever position you want to uphold in such a manner may not in fact reflect the more clearly apparent meaning of the text ) is usually a flawed for of discernment. We were not proof texting; we clearly stated that countless Christian believers, over thousands of years, have supported communalism. The text, and the history, are irrefutable, on the evidence.

   But, here is something that TEA Party(ies) and other Parties should note. You ask about God directing our actions from the Bible today. We believe that God does direct our actions today, and we believe that reading and meditating upon the scriptures, with the power of the Holy Spirit assisting us, is a way that God directs our actions today.

   In many scriptures God is recorded saying, explicitly, directly, and without confusion of terms, that ‘aliens in your land’ ( sometimes translated ‘strangers in your land’, or we would say immigrants’ ) are to receive extraordinary respect and care. Here is a mere sample of texts:

   You shall not wrong or oppress a resident alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 22.21)

   You shall not oppress a resident alien; you know the heart of an alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23.9)

   You shall not strip your vineyard bare, or gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the alien: I am the Lord your God. (Leviticus 19.10)

   When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. (Leviticus 19.33)

   The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. (Leviticus 19.34)

   there shall be one law for the native and for the alien who resides among you. (Exodus 12.49) (also Leviticus 24.22). Oh, and Numbers 15.16))

   When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very edges of your field, or gather the gleanings of your harvest; you shall leave them for the poor and for the alien: I am the Lord your God. (Leviticus 23.22)

   The land shall not be sold in perpetuity, for the land is mine; with me you are but aliens and tenants. (Leviticus 25.23)

   As for the assembly, there shall be for both you and the resident alien a single statute, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; you and the alien shall be alike before the Lord. (Numbers 15.15)

   You shall not withhold the wages of poor and needy labourers, whether other Israelites or aliens who reside in your land in one of your towns. (Deuteronomy 24.14)

   You shall not deprive a resident alien or an orphan of justice; you shall not take a widow’s garment in pledge. (Deuteronomy 24.17)

   ‘Cursed be anyone who deprives the alien, the orphan, and the widow of justice.’ All the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ (Deuteronomy 27.19)

   Thus says the Lord: Act with justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor anyone who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the alien, the orphan, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place. (Jeremiah 22.3)

   do not oppress the widow, the orphan, the alien, or the poor; and do not devise evil in your hearts against one another. (Zechariah 7.10)

   Then I will draw near to you for judgement; I will be swift to bear witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired workers in their wages, the widow, and the orphan, against those who thrust aside the alien, and do not fear me, says the Lord of hosts. (Malachi 3.5)

   etc etc etc

   We consider that ‘alien’ in these texts does not refer to ‘aliens from Mars or other non-terrestrial planets’, but refers to the individuals, families, and communities we call ‘immigrants’.

   It is very VERY clear that God has condemned – and already judged – anti-immigrant rhetoric, anti-immigrant prejudice, anti-immigrant actions, injustices against immigrants, maltreatment of immigrants. TEA Party(ies) and any Parties, or any one, who actually fears that God righteously fulfills God’s promises, should respect God’s explicit, direct, and clear preference for widows, orphans, and immigrants (‘aliens in your land’, ‘strangers in your land’).

   Christian believers, who know these texts, who respect that God is truthful, righteous, and fulfills God’s Word, would have to contort God’s Word to justify support for any TEA Party, or other Party(ies), that promote false witness against immigrants, injustice against immigrants, prejudiced speech or actions against immigrants, maltreatment of immigrants. God’s Word is not spoken in vain, or without purpose. God’s care for ‘aliens in your land’, ‘strangers in your land’, immigrants, and God’s command to the nation to care for immigrants, aliens, strangers, is spoken with unmistakable clarity. And, the texts even approach commentary on governance: As for the assembly, there shall be for both you and the resident alien a single statute, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; you and the alien shall be alike before the Lord. (Numbers 15.15)

   Therefore, those who live by God’s Word must discern carefully what TEA Party, or any Party(ies) are saying about immigrants, acting upon immigrants, proposing for immigrants. As well what TEA Party, or any Party(ies) are saying and acting upon widow, orphans, labourers/workers, and the poor.

   Thank you.

   Reply
   • By Kurt Feigel, September 12, 2011

     What is it about you post moderns that makes you feel the need to leave pseudo books in response?

     Reply
3. By els2, September 12, 2011

   We might have said simply,

   ‘Love God with all of yourself, and love your neighbor as yourself’,

   and ‘neighbor’ includes immigrants (and, includes them ESPECIALLY, according to more than one hundred Biblical texts, including those quoted above)

   Oh: that ‘love’ quote is not a post-modern concept. Straight from God, according to Jesus. I don’t think you’ll find it indexed in Derrida.

   The point: don’t mistake programs of political parties – Democrat, Republicanist, TEA, or otherwise – as God’s work. You may be wrong. But a simple standard to apply is always: WWJD, What Would Jesus Do.

   Thank you.

   Reply
   • By Kurt Feigel, September 13, 2011

     So Jesus would use force,intimidation,coercion,murder to enact communism? Cause that is what the government ALWAYS does.

     Reply
4. By els2, September 13, 2011

   With respect, you are off topic:

   The analysis particularly referred to treatment of immigrants.

   Your ‘straw man’ – “Would Jesus would use force,intimidation,coercion,murder” – is poorly argued. Of course Jesus would not participate in any of these abominations.

   Perhaps you misapprehend the point made about WWJD: the good news of Jesus and life within the good news is not a political strategy or tactic, and not a policy of governance. Governance and Politics were not objectives of Jesus’ life. Jesus’ work among humanity is clearly stated in the Christian New Testament to be ‘to preach the good news that God is near, that God’s Word has come to humanity to bring everlasting life, and to heal the sick’. Christian believers are to life in the power of the Holy Spirit to do these same thing, informed by the historical Word God has spoken through the Hebrew Scriptures and the New Testament.

   Doing this, Christian believers are to be involved in the life of the world, as their faith communities help guide them to be involved, in their time and culture. Humans live in particular times, particular cultures, particular social groups, etc. And, therefore are flawed by limited knowledge, bias and prejudice of times and cultures, and flawed by the weaknesses of body, mind, and spirit (e.g. the seven deadly sins).
   Some Christians are involved minimally and withdraw from politics as much as possible (e.g. Amish, cloistered Catholic religious, etc). Some Christians are involved integrally in political life (e.g. many in TEA Party/ies appear highly involved in politics, and highly influenced by religious rhetoric). TEA Party, Democrat Party, Republicanist Party, etc followers fail their Christian belief – if they are Christian believers – is they fail to apply the standard of WWJD in their analysis and discernment of issues and political support.

   Human failure is not evil; it is failure, to be recognized and corrected. This is part of Christian responsibility.

   And, to repeat, on topic: regarding treatment of immigrants, it is very clear from the Biblical witness, that the standard of WWJD requires Christian believers to have a preference for justice, consideration, and care for immigrants/strangers/aliens in our land. Christian believers must speak this Biblical truth to demagogues who speak hatefully, and act hatefully, and plan laws hatefullly, against immigrants.

   Thank you.

   Reply
   • By Kurt Feigel, September 13, 2011

     That’s the problem with you post moderns. You come on here write up a book as a comment and expect us to read the wild tangents you’ve attempted to take us on. This post was about Obama’s speech. You then took us on the rabbit trail saying we can’t use the word communism and that Jesus was a communist. and now we are on Illegal Immigration?

     I said: “So Jesus would use force,intimidation,coercion,murder to enact communism? Cause that is what the government ALWAYS does.” in response to your position about communism and Christians.

     Not poorly argued. It sums up communism.

     Reply